The Future of UKA

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Weirdo, May 10, 2018.

  1. megalomaniac

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    Holy crap... Tranformers has no political message? It’s about a war over oil, Energon is an incredibly crude metaphor for oil. If I recall correctly the Decepticons literally take over an oil field at one point and convert the stuff into Energon, as if to ram the point home. And that’s just the most overt politicisation in Transformers. Your failure to see the politics in something doesn’t mean they aren’t there. To quote Skunk Anansie (appropriately a 90s band headed by one of those pesky “minority puppets”: a black, bi, female, lead singer) “YES IT’S FUCKING POLITICAL, EVERYTHING’S POLITICAL”.

    And how dare you complain about minorities finally getting some tiny piece of representation in the ocean of stuff aimed precisely at people like you? The vast majority of media in living memory has been aimed at you and some tiny piece of representation for someone else offends you? What a joke.

    And kids? Hell yeah they need exposure to exactly that sort of thing. Seeing minorities represented positively in media is one of the things that stops them turning into xenophobic, racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and generally horrid human beings.

    As for the “Sorry you were offended” bs apology, I’ve lost a lot of respect for some of the people involved in this site who should know better. The site has done nothing to distance itself from the opinions in that podcast, and not doing so is tacitly endorsing them - as is advertising the new ventures of those who espoused them. It’s such a simple thing, it really should not be this hard.
     
  2. Necro

    Necro Grim User

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    Maybe I don't know enough about transformers to have an opinion then. I'll concede on that.

    As for some random cunt saying "everything is political", that's false. People who say EVERYTHING is political are heavily invested in politics. I could start writing a blog or even a fucking cartoon about my shit mundane life, and it wouldn't be political, it would simply be a social document. Just because politics exists in every form doesn't mean every form is political. You can state something without intending it to have a higher message, which I believe was the entire point of the argument. Stop looking for meaning where there is none.

    I never said they shouldn't be exposed to those types of things, i said cartoons shouldn't be the message, as they only portray the creators point of view. Of course kids need to know gay and black people exist, but that happens in life anyway. The issue I personally have with everything is that it's absolute bollocks how its done. Roughly 10% of the population is gay. Always has been, and it's great that they're now accepted as an everyday part of life. It doesn't mean every other fucking character has to be some sort of queer just to point out they exist. Nobody gives a fuck.

    Same with trans. This absolute fad of "transtrenders" and the 20 new genders a day, ranging from "demigirl" to "genderfluid" is an abnormality. They represent a statistically irrelevant part of the population, and while it's fine to know these people exist, the fact that trans issues are so prevalent in today's politics proves that it's pandering to the minority crowds simply for the sake of diversity and progressiveness

    It's not that people hate or dislike these people, it's that nobody cares. Nobody cares if you want to be a girl. Nobody cares if you suck dick. I am bisexual, i have slept with men. I actively avoid telling people I'm bisexual because of this. Nobody cares. Live your fucking life. I had no idea so many of the people on here were so easily triggered by an opposing position.

    Back to the topic at hand, UKA shouldn't have a voice on these topics obviously. But Ross is his own person, the views expressed in the Podcast are his own, as are Seb's who was very reasonable and fair in his dealings with them. I disagree that a lack of proper apology is the same as promoting the opinions put, but I do think there should be a very basic article to point out X, Y and Z, and what will move forward.
     
  3. Shadow Cat

    Shadow Cat The resident Yuri Fan

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    This is in reply to my tweet "can someone explain what AF is? I've avoided the feminist movement after drama a few years back." and the comment above

    As you should be aware, I am a very LGBT friendly person. While sometimes I may come across as a little inappropriate (things like "The resident Yuri fan" and posting Yuri ships on facebook/twitter) I make sure that is my Anime fandom side of things. I have and will continue to support both friends and work colleagues who are going through trouble or need to speak to someone as best as possible. I will go to events that support both LGBT and Mental health because this is something that I feel I should give attention too

    While I agree that it is not all feminists, and I'm no way saying this has anything to do with AniFem as I do not personally know them. My issue is where there are feminists (usually the well spoken ones, see a lot of Youtube drama back in 2015) saying that all CIS White males are not welcome in the feminist or LGBT community, that we're all racist and trans-phobic and our support is not welcome. If a group of people wishes to have this opinion then fine, but it does mean that people are going to see a movement that’s meant to promote equality and ask what the actual f*ck is going on.

    Due to these events I will not support Feminism but I will still respect that they have valid opinions when it comes to certain issues. I feel as though the movement should be used to promote equality, understanding and express viewpoints on certain topics such as how support for men with mental health could be improved, the way that society views crimes against the LGBT community (it’s still not uncommon for people to look the other way or even promote violence, what in 2018 should NOT be a thing).

    All the views are my own opinion about Feminism and not evens that have happened on UK-Anime, AniFem or Twitter... Its purely why I do not and will not support such a movement

    -----

    Don’t forget that a major UK Anime company (Who’s name I will not mention but if you have been following my rant about this company for the last few years you would know who they were) did say that they have no interest in releasing things like Wandering Son, Aoi Hana or other LGBT related anime. If Ross is in the wrong for not seeing the interest in trans-robots content creeping into Transformers, why was /this company/ not in the wrong for the immediate Not going to happen reply to LGBT anime?

    Sure, Cost vs Sales are an issue, licensing agreements, translations, these are all valid issues. But it wasn't that... It was an immediate Not going to happen
     
    #23 Shadow Cat, May 13, 2018
    Last edited: May 13, 2018
  4. Tweek

    Tweek Registered

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    I wondered why there hadn't been a new podcast for a little while...

    I'm certainly sorry to see Ross leave; I listened to the 'offending' podcast and didn't hear anything that I'd describe as 'hard right'. Of course in these days of safe spaces and the Cult of Corbyn anything certain people disagree with seems to be described as hard right and a cause for the speaker to be made a pariah.
     
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  5. Weirdo

    Weirdo UKA Editor in Chief (Acting)
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    Hi Tweek,

    At the moment the podcast is basically finished until we have thought about a new format. This will likely come back as Season 4, probably in June I think. Need to organise some support for it. Chances are we will be going for a fortnightly format rather than weekly due to time constraints.
     
  6. Tweek

    Tweek Registered

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    June isn't too long to wait; I look forward to its return as I've always enjoyed listening :)
     
  7. Weirdo

    Weirdo UKA Editor in Chief (Acting)
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    As an addition to this thread, we are still moving forward with re-organising the site and setting standards and establishing the team. Updates will follow soon.
     
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  8. rjessop

    rjessop Registered

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    "Roughly 10% of the population is gay. Always has been, and it's great that they're now accepted as an everyday part of life. It doesn't mean every other fucking character has to be some sort of queer just to point out they exist. Nobody gives a fuck."

    So nobody, including you, gives a fuck, right, so why are you complaining about representation when you don't care? I mean 100% of characters in fiction could be queer but you don't give a fuck, so why are you ranting about it? Why are you triggered by representation that is (apparently) above this guesstimated 10% threshold? I mean you don't give a fuck, so you just see them as fictional characters, in a social document, right?

    Painting your opponents as emotionally compromised, not in their right minds, overwhelmed by being "triggered" or "offended" is exactly the sort of move that panders (your own word, again) to people predisposed to agree with you (because of their politics) and is what you would call "virtue signalling" if your opponents did it. It's also a weapon your opponents can easily turn on you for precisely those reasons.

    You could, perhaps, engage with the argument rather than calling a woman a Cunt. Like so: Your assertion is false. People do actually give a fuck. If nobody gave a fuck about gay or trans people, who invoked the machinery of government to enact Section 28 to ban representation of them in schools? Section 28 was enacted in my lifetime (1988) and was still in effect during yours (rescinded 2003). If people didn't give a fuck you could have married a consenting adult of the same gender centuries rather than years ago. Gay and trans people still get attacked in the street, today. People who go after strangers in the street with hammers give a fuck (also apparently these people are left wing, because all violence comes from the left, lol). People who are afraid of being attacked in the street give a fuck. Gay and trans people literally tell us that representation matters to them, as they often don't get role models who resemble them growing up, particularly in small and/or remote communities. I think if 50% of characters in recent fiction were minorities, not only would it not make a dent in the overwhelming majority of fiction that currently exists which features majority characters, but no harm would be done anyway. If 50% of characters in all of fiction were queer, then what? People would think heterosexual and cis and queer and trans characters were normal. Where is the downside here? Where is the harm? Explain the mechanism by which 'over representation' causes suffering.

    On a different subject, I have seen this: https://sakuraanimenews.com/2018/05/17/animegate-update-17-05-18-uk-anime-network-controversy/
    And it includes this line "Note: This podcast is reposted with the authorisation of UK Anime Network and the individuals who made it."
    Is this the case, Seb? If it is the case, what was the point of taking the podcast down if you're willing to consent to its publication by other means?
     
  9. Sakura Otaku

    Sakura Otaku New Member

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    Hi, I'm the one who published the article. While I cannot speak for Seb, I will say that the podcast was taken down so UK Anime Network could distance themselves from it and disown it. I reposted it to give what I believe is necessary background information to understand the controversy, which is different than hosting it as part of your website's content. Also, with the podcast having already been reposted so many times through other means, I thought it would be silly to pretend it didn't exist when it is so easy to find.

    If it bothers enough people then I will take it down. But so far I've received positive feedback for its inclusion by some of my readers.
     
  10. Eros

    Eros

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    OK throw my two pence in and probably get a ban hammering, or at least a talking too... I am an old member of the UK-A forums, I have a few historical gripes, and character assessments, so let me just throw in this two pence and hopefully not get to excited in the process to say exactly what i want to...

    I will just say the following as a preamble.
    I am an old member of the UK-A forums, iv met a bunch of the members who were for the most part fantastic people. I am still in touch and have great friendships with a few people still today. That said, I largely moved away from the community on the basis of a few meets and in part how the forums were largely a clique. Iv met Ross, though I doubt he would remember me, he says in the pod cast that he loves the community and has met with lots of great people... no doubt... but when I was first involved in UKA meets, the Ross i met was distant, cold and largely arrogant, only interested in talking with two people at the meet. So when I hear the line "When they know who I am" it makes me smile and feel "Wow... nothing has changed then". I come back every so often to the UKA forums on the hope that a community spirit might have had a rebirth, but, with changing media and a changing landscape of what people are trying to get out of the forums... when a certain one or two members vanished from the forums... much of the discussion and joy dried up with them in my eyes... that is just about as cryptic as i can tell the truth without spelling it out exactly :p

    After listening to the podcast in questions (thanks for the link there Sakura Otaku) is that...

    0) Seb, you are as expected largely the voice of reason... much respect for that.

    1) Everything is political, there is an element of politics in everything, to make a statement that people shouldn't be painted with the same brush, and then to in the same breath say "oh its always the left wing that are violent" sorry, but idiotic statement, absolutely incorrect... it isn't ALWAYS. (In case i don't recognize the voices fully, i believe it was Seb there being the voice of reason saying "wait, its not always the left" and thank god for that). Changes to language, yes, has to be somewhat cautious, though these things are often in a category of - rock and hard-place, people will complain regardless. The changing of "But Im a woman" to "But I'm not into women" is given far too much weight.... given what was said in the pod cast about leftist agenda... sorry but, i just don't see it, the show in question has lesbianism written all over it. Its a niche anime tailored to young men who find sexual jokes and massive breasts wobbling around extremely funny. Sorry to disrespect the audience but, most of them wont care a single bit... nor will it remove the "Oh wait, some women like women" since it is so clearly an integral aspect of the show. Again... just a terribly weak example to be upset about in my opinion.

    2) Leaning bias and pushing everything as an agenda is similar to 1 above, just completely incorrect and in many ways, very paranoid. "Everything in some way is an agenda, and that agenda is always bad". Sorry but, if we want to do analysis, we will find people moaning about leftist agenda are usually moaning (usually, not always) because they themselves cannot ram their own agenda down peoples throats without question. So who exactly is in the right? No one... absolutely no one. So yes, good to point out the problems where there are them, but, at least do so with a tiny bit of intelligence. Ross says "I don't care about opinion, iv got a subscription to the telegraph" Boom there you go, you then believe that they fact check everything, and they don't have a bias in your eyes.... Sorry but the telegraph is right wing, its news and narrative is right wing... its just fact... claiming then "omg leftist" is just... sigh.... no more comment at how frustrating that is in just how short sighted an excuse it is.

    3) Sorry... to re-iterate but Nationalist movements right now in the UK right now... they are definitely not left wing leaning... have to disagree... maybe that is a defensiveness because you are right ring leaning ross? That isn't an accusation that you support them, but as someone who in the podcast wants to do the "its good to critique things"... i agree... it is good, and the extreme left are as bad as the extreme right... at the moment in the UK, id hardly call the Nationalists 'leftist' and to even suggest it by proxy is just outright ignorant.

    4) The "Protect the children" gets a bit old, and maybe, just maybe, this idea of keeping the children innocent and basically telling them how to be based on the types of toys they are exposed to and the messages they hear... isn't all that good...are we in he 1950s? Again it is very ironic, given there seems to be a very arbitrary "Its ok in this instance, but not this one because im an old school fan" yaaaaaawn come on, thought people where smarter these days, just reeling through the argument, without any hint of admitting a contradiction... again... yawn yawn yawn, next please. Its like the condemnation of all reboots of TV series, I remember someone making a comment in regard to the new Star Trek series (iv not watched it, but based on the persons moaning) he was going off about how "the new show was pushing feminism and its all stupid, they make stupid decisions like, all the important people of the crew leave the ship, its dumb it wouldn't happen, etc etc etc the original series was better." It 's like... yeah, did you see the original series, they did the same as that every episode why can't you see it in that instance? or are you saying both shows are crap and pushing leftist agenda (that one isn't pointed directly based on the pod cast, and more of an outside example)
     
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  11. Martin

    Martin guitaku
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    Wow, a real blast from the past...welcome back Eros! It's great to hear from you again. I hope you're well. :D

    As for the podcast still being available...it's a tricky one with no "right" answer. My understanding is that it was deleted from the UK-A Soundcloud so that the site could make a clear statement about how it was time to "disown" it, limit the damage and move on. Leaving it up might look like a tacit approval of the content, and Seb has made clear he didn't want that. On the other hand, its removal took away some important context, so people literally couldn't have an *informed* discussion about it any more. Speaking from the POV of someone who probably knows Seb better than most, I ought to point out that everyone who works for UK-A has "day jobs" and other "non-internet" responsibilities; handling something like this in the neatest and most diplomatic way possible has to be weighed up against other stuff that doesn't stop happening just because something unexpected turns up. I'm sure we'll all look back on this and see things that we would want to have handled differently.

    I've found this whole episode to be really, really sad. Many of my longest-running friendships can be traced back to this place, so I'd like to think that I have a number of very good friends here, and it's sort of part of the fan community landscape. In the past couple of weeks though I've seen some large rifts between people who've known each other for years, which is disappointing in the extreme. Also: mud sticks. It's going to take time to rebuild goodwill with many other sites, such as Anime Feminist and Anime Herald (two sites that I've become familiar with fairly recently but have a lot of respect for). This is hardly the first controversy that the old buggers amongst us have witnessed, but it's going to take time to fully settle down.

    Onto my personal stance on the issue. I'm speaking purely for myself here, but the impression I got from several others appears to be fairly similar: it's not Ross' controversial opinions offending me personally that was the problem. Due to the fact that these views were coming from the site's main editor, there was the misconception - among Anime Feminist, Anime Herald and numerous others - that this one person's views were those of the site as a whole. That was what many of us felt was unacceptable: "tarring with the same brush" indeed. If he'd expressed them anywhere else, no doubt we'd be able to agree or disagree with them on their own merits with no harm done.

    Whether it's the podcast, a review or even a post on the forum, UK-A operates like many others in that the site itself is a neutral platform for airing a range of opinions from the contributors who often disagree with one another. Heck, this very thread has highlighted how widely our individual opinions differ! :p *That* podcast on its own wasn't the whole problem, although the factual inaccuracies and accusations levelled at other fan sites deserved to be refuted and argued against. It was compounded by a subsequent Twitter spat, using the UK-A rather than a personal account, that gave the impression to outside observers that the editor was speaking for the rest of the team, and the reputation of the whole site plummeted in the eyes of many. This is why I felt the need to distance myself while the furore settled down, and I get the impression that several others felt the same way (if not, feel free to correct me). Not to mention the fact that a number of old friends were suddenly on very bad terms with one another, and I wasn't confident that getting involved wouldn't make things worse.

    Although I disagree with Ross on a lot of issues and don't expect to be following his new venture, I recognise how much hard work he's put into this site over the years and I wish him well. If anything, the new arrangement might work better for all concerned: both Ross and UK-A can make their respective fresh starts without one feeling constrained by the other.

    At this point, I see that a "fresh start" has indeed been made and I'm happy to contribute to the site where free time allows, on the understanding that it's back to "business as usual" where I can help produce content that's interesting, relevant and promotes healthy discussion rather than bad feeling and needless infighting. I'd like to think that I still have friends here after all. I honestly think it's perfectly possible to work towards presenting a wide range of viewpoints and giving them a fair hearing without making the rest of the team look bad, or harming the wider fan community.

    I hope then that, for example, my stating that the Tsukihime anime adaptation wasn't that bad won't bring the site into disrepute...
     
  12. Eros

    Eros

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    Hey Martin, It is good to pop back every now and again. Do feel a bit like in interloper however having moved rather far away from the UK.

    I do have many memories likewise with this place from way back when, similar to you. It differs a little as I never got involved mostly because I never felt I could penetrate to deeply into the clique. Mostly my points of contact have been Seb, who despite our contact being few and far between these past years, I do maintain great respect for. Seb was basically my only point of contact with the inner circle as it were and I often found that if I wanted to take part, or contribute, that I had to accept things I was not very happy with in terms of the people, and in terms of other integrity and moral factors. I felt that in order for me to make any kind of core contribution I would basically have to do some massive sucking up to certain people... people who back then, I didn't respect due to their arrogance (Who really in my opinion didn't deserve any sucking up to or respect), and others who had egos that meant me blindly accepting personal attack and insult in order to penetrate that core. (Its brilliant to think back and my memories of one meet being tarnished with meeting someone for the first time and having to ignore that my previous communication with them was them calling me a idiot and a waste of space and effort because an e-mail had gone into a spam box..., and not even getting a "Oh yeah sorry about that" Just made me think, wow, how gutless.)

    Call it pride, call it anything, but my attendance at the UK-A forums, and general meet-ups faded on the basis of these factors, and good old fashioned life commitments during my PhD. My two pence above does in retrospect of a day, seem out of place, as I have known little of the coming and going of this community these days. I only posted it in response to in a manner, confirming what I'd always thought dating way way back to when I was a frequent contributor (at least to the discussion forum).


    Looking forward, I hope to see things rebuilt and fresher than before.
     
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  13. Weirdo

    Weirdo UKA Editor in Chief (Acting)
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    Responding directly to the question given.

    The podcast was taken down. However it was downloaded and made available by third parties. I requested that these third parties cease distribution and they declined. The link has continued to be made available against the wishes of the site, but is instead presented for posterity as to how NOT to make a podcast... and a lesson for the future on how not to manage a crisis. Lesson learnt.
     
  14. Weirdo

    Weirdo UKA Editor in Chief (Acting)
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    Also, to add:

    This is a fresh start, but unfortunately some issues are ongoing and keep having the issues raised. But this is a new team and things are going in a new direction and we are trying to run this site as an editorial team which is a bit of a different direction. I am just where the buck stops.

    Eros: Its bloody good to see you again mate and I seriously wish it was easier to play a certain game on Windows 10 and a 64bit environment!! :) Hope things are going well with the Mrs and the cat in the cold Norths.

    Martin: Thank you for your support.
     

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